Contributors: Questions about including crossover stuff in SMF:R? Ask here!

[D-TurboKiller]

Hey JS, what happened to Diamondus? I sent it to you ages ago but you never got to merge it. It was part of the level list too, 6-S1 or something.
I suppose you forgot about it because at the time you were focusing on the early worlds and this belonged to one of the last ones, so there wasn't even a proper map.

Oh, and the level source is RIGHT HERE, just as I left it.


_{And before anyone asks, I just stopped by and noticed this topic, and it reminded me about it.}

[Wetwoo]

Hey JS, what happened to Diamondus? I sent it to you ages ago but you never got to merge it. It was part of the level list too, 6-S1 or something.
I suppose you forgot about it because at the time you were focusing on the early worlds and this belonged to one of the last ones, so there wasn't even a proper map.

Oh, and the level source is RIGHT HERE, just as I left it.


And before anyone asks, I just stopped by and noticed this topic, and it reminded me about it.

Unfortnunately, Diamondus is unsuitable to be merged into SMF:R. Here is a detailed reason why:

Diamondus is a very obvious MKF level which had some changes to make it SMFR friendly.  It also was not playtested much;  within the first twenty seconds you run into a wall that you are supposed to run up using the wall triangles from Super Mario World.  The ones from Hello Engine 4.  Which do not work in SMFR even in the Diamondus original source itself.  The level is also a huge reference to Jazz Jackrabbit with signs everywhere that say "Kill this rabbit!", "Rabbits stink!" etc.  that would be confusing in SMFR since we are not basing levels around showcasing particular games.  And to top it all off, the whole thing is incredibly hard.  With a little creativity you can get past that wall I mentioned, and get greeted by this.


and if you get past that, this happens:


I think I remember something similar in the MKF version with Covenant enemies, but that one had lots of guns to deal with it.  A quick glance in Game Maker shows that all 3 rooms of this level are fairly large and contain the same problems mentioned above, including the wall triangles.  Diamondus could be changed to be a good level for this game, but it would take a large number of changes.  If anyone wants to try Mr. D or I can post a link to the source of it, but retooling this level is going to take more than removing a few enemies.

tl;dr version:

Level is unpolished and untested.
We are not accepting crossover levels.

[D-TurboKiller]

Well, fair enough I suppose. I understand the whole "no crossovers" deal, I just had a fully finished level stored and not much to do with it.
However, I'd like to point out a few things, bearing in mind I can't really access my own source to check it:

-Rather than "not being playtested much", it seems for some reason you thought a head-on approach to everything in this level was a fantastic idea. It's not, and there are alternate ways to deal with every "encounter". Not only that, how hard the level actually is depends on the routes you choose.

-Aren't you supposed to run up the wall triangles at max speed? Or so it's supposed to work in HE4. Even if you can't, there's a text box nearby that says you can climb the trees. Though, using the bullets to climb up isn't exactly great, due to their design. It was probably overkill to add 3 wall climbers on a specific area of the level later on, though.

-About the whole reference thing, I agree. The signs were a bit obnoxious and innapropriate. At the time, though, the whole crossover portion of things was more acceptable, and it was part of the original level, so I left it as it was. I'd be amused if someone remade the signs into "Kill this plumber!".

-Instead of rampaging through like you did in the 1st and 2nd screenshots, it'd take you about 15-20 seconds to get past that if you used the upper path. See the yellow blocks? Jump up those, and proceed right on top of the wooden platform. There's a moving rope there that'll take you past all the baddies. "Thinking things through" was the motto for this level.

-It's an outdated source, that much is obvious. I'm sure some things don't work as well as they should be and give that unbalanced/unpolished feel. But surely you could've done more than just a "quick glance"? It takes 4-5 minutes at most to complete it. And since you haven't, it feels more like a partial review, but oh well, I'll just assume there was a lack of free time.

That's pretty much everything I had to say about it, mostly things I still remember from it and my own video. Hope that didn't come out as insulting; I make honest, realist comments, which don't always fall well on some people.
Feel free to proceed how you wish, whether it's retooling (in which case, check my previous post for a link) or just plain scrapping it. I have little interest in designing anything game-related, I'm afraid.

[Wetwoo]

-Rather than "not being playtested much", it seems for some reason you thought a head-on approach to everything in this level was a fantastic idea.
...
But surely you could've done more than just a "quick glance"? ... And since you haven't, it feels more like a partial review, but oh well, I'll just assume there was a lack of free time.

It was actually Riverroad who playtested this level and provided this detailed feedback, and he did it way back in September 29, 2011. He also playtested it thoroughly, not only a "quick glance", as you so defensively claim. So the decision to not merge Diamondus came nearly a year ago.

The wall triangles were completely disabled in SMF:R from day one. Deprecated. So they do not work. Period. Hence our conclusion of you not playtesting the level.

You threw in Mario enemies in a Jazz Jackrabbit level. You put giant clusters of enemies in numerous areas of the level.

Even if you did not have all these problems in your level, we still would have not accepted it due to the blatant Jazz Jackrabbit lift, Which brings me to this:

About the whole reference thing, I agree. The signs were a bit obnoxious and innapropriate. At the time, though, the whole crossover portion of things was more acceptable, and it was part of the original level, so I left it as it was. I'd be amused if someone remade the signs into "Kill this plumber!".

No, the crossover thing was NEVER acceptable once actual development began on SMF:R. Having an enemy from ActRaiser, for example, used in an original context (numerous places in World 4 and World 5) is acceptable. Having a level lifted straight out of ActRaiser is not. Redoing the signs would not work because we will eventually have Toad, Waluigi, and Wario playable, in addition to Peach, who is already playable. Even if we actually did merge this level in, we would have removed it anyway due to our new level design guidelines.

I'd rather have honest responses instead of half-truthful responses. However, it is different with you, D-Turbokiller. The problem with your responses, D-Turbokiller, is that you come off as very VERY defensive against any kind of criticism, falling on long-winded retaliations. You take rejection and criticism very personally. You've done this same defensive response when I rejected your realistic guns addition for MKF in Sahara Scramble a couple years ago. You also got defensive when I rejected your suggestions to add in the fighter from the PC game Raptor: Call of the Shadows into Xeno Fighters R. I see you have changed very little since then. What invalidates your position further and further supports our claim you have not playtested your own level well:

However, I'd like to point out a few things, bearing in mind I can't really access my own source to check it:
...
That's pretty much everything I had to say about it, mostly things I still remember from it and my own video.

Huh, so you try to support yourself WITHOUT having your own source loaded to refer to, even bearing in mind that you cannot really check it (use 8.1 free to check your source even if that version does not allow you to test it). Yet you still provided a download link for it. Does that make any kind of logical sense to you, D-Turbokiller?

Finally, we are NOT obligated to use anything you or any other outside contributor make. If our guidelines seem harsh, that's because they are. We are extremely strict as to what goes into SMF:R.

[JDogindy]

Considering this thread, I do have to point out something.

For the Sumatran Jungle stage I plan on doing, I want to modify an enemy that's already part of the source (the crow) as a bat from ActRaiser.  Would this be classified as going extreme on the crossover thing?  I know it's a rather dumb question and a waste of a post, but I want to confirm what I want to do and see if it's acceptable.

[Wetwoo]

@Jdog

using an enemy from another game is nowhere near the level of lifting a level straight out of another game while passing it off as being from that game.

While World 5-3 (Phantom Train) is based on the same area found in Final Fantasy VI, it still fits in the world it is placed (World 5, a fantasy-themed world) and the enemies used there are generic enough to be reused in other levels. Same with 5-SHIP, which is based on a stage in Golden Axe. Crossover levels like these are made only under SMF:R developer discussion, and we will only make a very small number of them; we do not allow public contributors to make crossover levels because it has the tendency to get out of control, like what happened to MKF early on.

We had to reject Gladia's Yolkfolk Village (a level lifted from a setting of a stage from a Dizzy game) upon further review because of the unauthorized extreme crossover issue. If you are in doubt, consult the SMF:R Level Design Guidelines and Advisories topic for the specifics of crossover assets use.

[JDogindy]

@Jdog

using an enemy from another game is nowhere near the level of lifting a level straight out of another game while passing it off as being from that game.

While World 5-3 (Phantom Train) is based on the same area found in Final Fantasy VI, it still fits in the world it is placed (World 5, a fantasy-themed world) and the enemies used there are generic enough to be reused in other levels. Same with 5-SHIP, which is based on a stage in Golden Axe. Crossover levels like these are made only under SMF:R developer discussion, and we will only make a very small number of them; we do not allow public contributors to make crossover levels because it has the tendency to get out of control, like what happened to MKF early on.

We had to reject Gladia's Yolkfolk Village (a level lifted from a setting of a stage from a Dizzy game) upon further review because of the unauthorized extreme crossover issue. If you are in doubt, consult the SMF:R Level Design Guidelines and Advisories topic for the specifics of crossover assets use.

Well, thanks.

For that stage, I plan on using tilesets from ActRaiser and Kid Chameleon.  However, other than the bat, the majority of enemies are going to be Metal Slug troopers, because I want the stage to be the premise that the Rebel Army has taken over this long-forgotten temple.  I would've suggested one more ActRaiser enemy (that skeleton thing that was in Marahna temple), but due to my lack of coding abilties, I'm not going to go there.

[Wetwoo]

Adding in new enemies from other games is fine as long as you use them in original contexts. And there already is a skeleton enemy in the SMF:R source. It's a World 4 enemy, and it's called obj_CV_yorick

Also, show common sense when adding in new enemies. Do not add in enemies that are vastly out of proportion to the Mario scale and the Metal Slug scale. This gets especially ridiculous if you add in humanoid enemies that are vastly out of proportion to Mario/Metal Slug. Examples of overly large enemies would be Double Dragon enemies like Willy, which are far too large. We are working on resizing the Covenant enemies from Halo to be within Metal Slug humanoid proportions.

[Fosterkmas]

So just to be clear, an original non-mario enemy addition could be the following:

An action-orientated Bowser Castle complete with leathal lava jumps, fire spouting enemies from fantasy games, several crushing Mario Twomps, Zelda fire Keese waiting for you on plaform edges, and a heavy duty Iron Knuckle before the bosses grand door?

I know it's a little sketchy, but could something like that sort of fly?

(Something unoriginal: 16 different varitey of ghost sprites crammed into one linear ghost house).

[EvilMariobot]

We are working on resizing the Covenant enemies from Halo to be within Metal Slug humanoid proportions.

I take it the MKF models won't work? I believe they were created for the same reason.

[Wetwoo]

The MKF sprites for the Halo enemies are still too big for SMF:R.

So just to be clear, an original non-mario enemy addition could be the following:

An action-orientated Bowser Castle complete with leathal lava jumps, fire spouting enemies from fantasy games, several crushing Mario Twomps, Zelda fire Keese waiting for you on plaform edges, and a heavy duty Iron Knuckle before the bosses grand door?

I know it's a little sketchy, but could something like that sort of fly?

(Something unoriginal: 16 different varitey of ghost sprites crammed into one linear ghost house).

No, that is unacceptable. Non-Mario enemies are not to be used in Mushroom Kingdom-based levels.

[Wetwoo]

Here is a new Halo spritesheet I will use when I revamp the Covenant enemies:

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/Takanon/BionicleHalo/halosprites2.png

This sheet was made by InnerRayg, and credit will be given once this sheet is used. Reducing this sheet to 82% of its original size puts all of the enemies and NPCs to within Metal Slug humanoid size.

Resized sheet compared to a Rebel Soldier, Big Mario, and Big Peach, with current Halo Zero Covenant sprites for comparison:


This new sheet also contains other Halo enemies from the second game, such as the Brute, as well as the Jackal. Since the Covenant are a major enemy in World 6, new Covenant enemies can be made to further expand the World 6 enemy library.

[Thief of Time]

Would creating a level named after an area for another game being acceptable, as long as there are  few similarities between the two? For example, I am thinking of (but not sure about) making a level called Death Peak (after the area in Chrono Trigger), but besides the name and the snowy mountain aesthetic the similarities would end there.

[Gibbering Mouther]

Given that one of my level claims is titled Magitek Factory, I don't think stages that bear the name of locations in other games is a big deal.

The name of a level can be changed if it happens to be an issue though.

[Fosterkmas]

@Judge Spear

So any Mario themed and tiled level, be it Desert, Bower Castle, or Ghost House, should only contain enemies from the Mario Universe?

On the other hand, levels using tiles/backgrounds from other games can contain crossover enemies, as well as enemies from the Mario Universe? (The level should also be original: it should not resemble or feel like the game it borrows tiles/sprites from in any way. It should feel like a Mario platformer).

Is that it??

I've been playing MKF, so I'm probably just muddling up all the different game concepts.

Thanks for the pointers! Good to know...